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Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:28 pm 
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Why would Jesus have to pray? Could it be that he had a earthly body and mind, and that that was praying to the "God mind " that he had?


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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:41 pm 
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bucooth wrote:
Could it be that he... was praying to the "God mind "... he had?

The following Scriptures are not intended to answer the WHY, but to WHOM should we pray.

<a href='http://biblestudynotes.org/redirect/bibleread.php?BOOK=40&CHAP=6' target='_blank'>Matthew 6</a>:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

<a href='http://biblestudynotes.org/redirect/bibleread.php?BOOK=40&CHAP=6' target='_blank'>Matthew 6</a>:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

<a href='http://biblestudynotes.org/redirect/bibleread.php?BOOK=40&CHAP=26' target='_blank'>Matthew 26</a>:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Other Related Resources:
<a href='http://biblestudynotes.org/redirect/dictionary.php?DICT=Prayer' target='_blank'>Easton's Bible Dictionary</a>
<a href='http://www.biblestudynotes.org/articles/redirect.php?id=1097431654' target='_blank'>Prayer; Article from Crucified4u.com</a>
<a href='http://biblestudynotes.org/redirect/show.php/act/ST/f/2/t/272' target='_blank'>Our Patter for Prayer</a>
Source: Into Thy Word
<a href='http://biblestudynotes.org/forums/redirectbackend2.php?t=350' target='_blank'>Prayer Changes Things Pt. 1</a>
<a href='http://biblestudynotes.org/forums/redirectbackend2.php?t=353' target='_blank'>Prayer Changes Things Pt. 2</a>
Source: Olive Branch
<a href='http://biblestudynotes.org/cgi-bin/anacondadir.pl?whereto=FORUMS&search=prayer' target='_blank'>Search for Prayer</a>
Source: Community Forums


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Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 1:58 pm 
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Why was he? Very simple

This is hard to accept for most.

Jesus does NOT equel God.

Luke 4:41 Even the demons say that Jesus is Gods Son.

Jesus showed himself to be "the son of man" at mathew 20:28. This puts him as the "son of man" that appears before the "ancient of days" at daniel 7:13. The "ancient of days" is Jehovah, the Father.

He acknowledged the one thing he had in common with adam; both were perfect humans with no human father., So jesus is rightly called "the last adam"(1 cor 15:45)

For this reason also Jesus was a corresponding ransom at 1 Tim 2:5,6. Jesus live corresponded with the life of adam creating the only perfect sacrifice, the ransom sacrifice.

On countless times jesus says that those exercising faith in him as there "savior" will be granted everlasting life.

Jesus was on earth in a human form, the only way he could contact God was by prayer. Likewise the only way we can contact him is thru prayer. He of course had a good relationship with our heavenly Father so we should expect him to pray often and to show us as an example. Note John 17:1-5, Mathew 6:9-11, Luke 11:1,2

Also Jesus prays to God and mentions "Gods will" as seperate then his. How could Jesus and Jehovah have seperate "wills" but be the same "entity" in the end?

Acts 7:56 clearly shows Jesus at the right hand side of God.

As you can see these scriptures wouldnt make sense and a close inspection of scriptures will show you that Jesus can not equel God. Here or There, Old Testimont or New Testimont.

This is why he prayed to God.

Bobothemonk



<!--EDIT|Bobothemonk|May 1 2005, 06:00 PM-->


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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 12:38 am 
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The "Ancient of Days" is The Son of Man, Christ. Daniel sees and describes the "Ancient of Days", what he looked like.

God has not been seen by man, let alone Daniel: I Timothy 6, Verse 16 says that God dwells in light that no man can approach unto. “. . . whom no man hath seen, or can see. . . .” Colossians 1:15 says that God is invisible.

In the 1st Chapter of John, Verse 18, in the 6th Chapter of John, and in the 1st John, Chapter 4, these words are thrice repeated: “No man hath seen God at any time.”

The Ancient of days is a theophany, it is an epiphany, it is a manifestation of the preincarnate Christ.

20th Chapter of the gospel of John, " my Lord and my God. "

God manifest in the flesh, the Angel of Jehovah, Christ incarnate, God walking among men.

You, a simple man, are still trying to destroy the Trinity, something that you simply cannot comprehend. Just because you do not understand the mystery of the Trinity, i.e. Jesus praying to the Father, even though Jesus and the Father are the same, does not mean the Trinity does not exist.

Your only purpose on this site seems to be to denounce the full power of Christ.


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Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 7:33 pm 
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Jesus never said He was God. He always claimed He was the Son of God. He always showed the Father to be superior. All the trinity is is a concept full of assumptions on a few verses that can be mis interperted. I still say if Jesus were God He would have just said so instead of saying He was the Son of God. But He didnt.

John 14:28
28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
(NKJ)

Jesus prayed that God's will be done not His own and besides I seriously doubt that God would need angels to come stregnthen Him.
Luke 22:41-43
41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and prayed,
42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."
43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.
(NKJ)

The trinity tries to lay that line that God set his powers aside to become Jesus which is just plain silly.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

The only one that stands to profit from Jesus being God is satan because He will decieve many away from Jesus. By looking at the trinity and its assumptions it is a confusing concept and we all know where confusion comes from. If God isnt confiusing people that just leaves satan.

1 Cor 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
(NKJ)

God made a great sacrifice by sending His Son so that we may have a way to the Father, and Jesus made a great sacrifice by being obediant to the Father and doing what God sent Him to do. Jesus became our example of obediance and suffering and was rewarded for it with His ressurection to the right hand of the Father. To try to sell anything other than that is just blasphmey.


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Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 1:45 pm 
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To try to sell anything other than that is just blasphmey. truebeliever7

John 10:31
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.

John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

So, truebeliever7, do you want to stone me for speeking the truth? The same thing Jesus said to the self-righteous of that day who said Jesus and God were not One?

Is your mind so simple such as the simple minded self righteous people that Christ was crucified by for the very reason that He said He was God and that all should and will bow down to Him as God? The same Christ who these people, you and I will soon see on the Great Day of Judgement, giving the gift of eternal life to those who believe in Him and eternal death to those who did not?

You and the self-rightious of that day and time simply cannot accept the truth that God has the power to be the Father and the Christ simultaneously as Christ clearly spoke of being and of which they tried to stone Him for proclaiming.


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Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:37 am 
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truebeliever7 wrote:
Jesus never said He was God. He always claimed He was the Son of God. He always showed the Father to be superior. All the trinity is is a concept full of assumptions on a few verses that can be mis interperted. I still say if Jesus were God He would have just said so instead of saying He was the Son of God. But He didnt.

from reading what you have all written, you are completely missing one of the major points. Jesus did show he was God on many occaissions!

The pharisees constatntly tried to catch him out and he turned it back on them. Mathew 2 :7 Who can forgive sins but God alone?
Jesus has claimes his deity through his ability to forgive sins.
Also did it other ways: raising the dead (John 6:39)
Power over nature (Mark 4:39)
Power over demons (Luke 4:35)
He knew mens hearts (Mark2:8)
He accpted worshiip that is due to God alone

Not only this but Jesus DID say that he was God!
John 10:30 - I and the Father are one

In terms of the trinity, it completely exists! You have to think of the trinity as a big cake. If you cut it into three all those three pieces are fantastic on their own but they essesntially are part of the one. God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are all of the one. They all share different roles, God is the creator, Jesus is the sacrifice and the Holy spirit is the guide. At the end of Mathews gospel Jesus tells the disciples to 'go and make didciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.'
They are all important and all hold authority!

Ok, i hope this helps and i pray that you will understand,
Vix
Helpful reading: Paul Little, Know what you believe.


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Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 12:04 am 
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rag,


John 10:36
36 "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
(NKJ)

nowhere does Jesus state I am God. everywhere it is claimed by Jesus Himself and others He is the Son of God. God made the sacrifice to send His Son to us God didnt drop what He was doing and come on His own. read scripture and believe it.
John 4:24
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
(NKJ)

Jesus is not.
Luke 24:39
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
(NKJ)

God cant be tempted,
James 1:13
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
(NKJ)

Jesus was tempted;
Matt 4:1
1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
(NKJ)

God and Jesus have seperate wills;
Luke 22:42
42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."
(NKJ)

and on and on and on, I could fill up the site with the truth. you have been decieved and dont even know it. the only way to the Father is through the Son. without Jesus you dont have the Father.
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
(NKJ)

I hope I am simple minded that is what Jesus is looking for not those who are full of mans knowledge. as far as self righteous I doubt it.

2 Cor 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
(NKJ)


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Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 12:17 am 
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vicki wrote:
truebeliever7 wrote:
Jesus never said He was God. He always claimed He was the Son of God. He always showed the Father to be superior. All the trinity is is a concept full of assumptions on a few verses that can be mis interperted. I still say if Jesus were God He would have just said so instead of saying He was the Son of God. But He didnt.

from reading what you have all written, you are completely missing one of the major points. Jesus did show he was God on many occaissions!

The pharisees constatntly tried to catch him out and he turned it back on them. Mathew 2 :7 Who can forgive sins but God alone?
Jesus has claimes his deity through his ability to forgive sins.
Also did it other ways: raising the dead (John 6:39)
Power over nature (Mark 4:39)
Power over demons (Luke 4:35)
He knew mens hearts (Mark2:8)
He accpted worshiip that is due to God alone

Not only this but Jesus DID say that he was God!
John 10:30 - I and the Father are one

In terms of the trinity, it completely exists! You have to think of the trinity as a big cake. If you cut it into three all those three pieces are fantastic on their own but they essesntially are part of the one. God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are all of the one. They all share different roles, God is the creator, Jesus is the sacrifice and the Holy spirit is the guide. At the end of Mathews gospel Jesus tells the disciples to 'go and make didciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.'
They are all important and all hold authority!

Ok, i hope this helps and i pray that you will understand,
Vix
Helpful reading: Paul Little, Know what you believe.

vicki;
God gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins.
If Jesus had been God He would not have needed to give Himself the authority!

Matt 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
(NKJ)

as for being one,
John 17:14-23
14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
15 "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
16 "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
(NKJ)

verse 22 we are to be one with Jesus and God but that wont make us God also.

verse14 Jesus gave us Gods Word that is where the oneness is. one in the Word of God. we will not be God just as Jesus will not be God.

Mark 12:32
32 So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
(NKJ)

1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
(NKJ)

John 8:40
40 "But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.
(NKJ)

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

nope sorry but Jesus isnt God and the sooner you relize that the better off your going to be.


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Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 11:37 pm 
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Truebeliever7

Christ Said:
“Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.” John 2:19

He was speaking of his earthly body. Now if God raised Christ from the dead, and Christ said, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.” John 2:19 while talking to the priests in the temple then Christ is affirming he is God.

Truebeliever7, you have proven how you do not know God. You have proven that you think God is so simple that he can not be among us in human form, yet still be God of the Universe and beyond.


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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:48 am 
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Maybe someone would like to explain to us just what is meant in John 1:1-1:15. I believe this is the thuth of the trinity of Our God. To start with first state what is the meaning of "Word" in John 1:1. Then you could elaberoate on how it relates to the trinity.
I would like to hear from anyone, even Truebeliever7

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Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:40 am 
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this post is soo old that I am sure none of you will read this reply, but anyways...

This is a realy weird thread in that the question was raised about Jesus praying and the only relpies have been trinitarian theology.
Besides that fact that all the posting here about the trinity is really weak, that isn't even the the point. No one asked about the nature of the trinity, but about the concept of Jesus praying, andwhy would he pray.
I think that if you want to understand this, yo must first ask yourself, "What is the purpose of praying?" You must also ask yourself, "What takes place during a prayer?"

As to the nature of the trinity; I am not sure if anone in the last 2,000 years has been able to sort it out completly, so what makes us so sure that all of a suden we have been able to? In what year did the concept of the trinity, as a theological premise, appear inmain-stream writings and teachings? :blink: :blink:

Truebeliever: You are in the oher side of the coin of modalistic trinitarianism, so you are no more incorrect than your antagonists. Some of them think that you cannot be a follower of Christ becuase you don't agree with their limited view of the trinity. You can be, and probably are, just keep trying to figure it out. Just please do not let "Oneness" charismatics swing you blindly that way.


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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:37 pm 
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samsnooper,

I am not sure this topic was ment to address the question about praying so much as to address who Jesus was praying to.

my whole problem with the trinity is it trys to make something out of the
word that isnt in it.

If Jesus were God the son as they believe why didnt he just say so?

why did peter tell Jesus you are the christ the Son of the living God.
Matt 16:15-16
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
(NKJ)

I would think peter would know who Jesus was wouldnt you. the contraversy of the trinity is just in the ones trying to push it off on others. it is a deception from satan that is a way of gettintg people farther away from God.

remember the only way to the Father is through the Son.

if there had been any truth about the trinity or Jesus being God dont you think God would have put it in His Word for us to read?

peace and have a good day.

I am not trying to figure anything out the Holy Spirit has already done that for me, and as for the oneness thing well it isnt in the Word of God either.


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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:50 pm 
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ChristianSoldier wrote:
Maybe someone would like to explain to us just what is meant in John 1:1-1:15. I believe this is the thuth of the trinity of Our God. To start with first state what is the meaning of "Word" in John 1:1. Then you could elaberoate on how it relates to the trinity.
I would like to hear from anyone, even Truebeliever7

The word is just that Gods word and God gave it to Jesus.

John 17:8
8 "For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
(NKJ)

people make this harder than it is.

John 12:49
49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
(NKJ)

I guess it would be safe to say Jesus was the vehicle for Gods Word. people need to relize when dealing with the Word of God they are dealing in a spiritual realm not one of the flesh that we live in.

1 Cor 2:9-16
9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
(NKJ)

you have to get past the fleshly thinking and learn to exist on another plain with a whole different set of pramaters to learn by.

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)

John 16:12-14
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
(NKJ)

it is through the Holy Spirit that we will learn all that God intended us to learn through Jesus. not mans knowledge or wisdom.

1 Cor 2:4-8
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
(NKJ)


thats enough for now.


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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:33 am 
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Greetings,
Given, the trinity is not spelled out word for word in the scriptures. However there is evidence for the reality of the triune God. My question is for newbie... if Jesus is not God, who then is He?
one of two possibilities are available:
1)He is God's son in the same way we are God's son's and daughters
2)He is a 'special' son.

If #1 is right then it would seem to me that why and how could he be our ransom?
If #2, how is he special? This is a concept that is not found in scripture at all. Jesus is always elevated above us qualitatively.

Since these 2 options are not very convincing I would opt for the idea that Jesus, being God's Son was begotten not made, light from light, true God from true God.... slain before the foundations of the world.

You really have no legitimate historical Christianity on your side when you say Jesus is not God.

Blessings,
jeremy
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