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 Post subject: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (without links)
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:50 pm 
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If you cannot love an eternal torment god (without links)

For the first 500 years of the Christian church, universal salvation was the prevailing doctrine of a large majority of the Christian church. To find the evidence that this is so, type into Google
books prevailing

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were using the Bible in its original language.This online book also explains why and how this changed.

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that all of the links referred to but not posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 69 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering (including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

You can Google up many similar testimonies by typing in
tentmaker hells fruit (small case letters)

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can Google up THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES (Google it up)

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism Google up
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinistic).

Thank God the Bible does not teach such insane ideas! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved. Google up
lake of fire eby

You can also Google up good articles on this subject by typing in kolasis aionian

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of TENTMAKER (Google it up), and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 69

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle. He answers the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"

You can Google up his answer by typing in ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST


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 Post subject: THE GRAND ASSERTION
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:38 am 
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THE GRAND ASSERTION

ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF
MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING
THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD.

Mal 3:2b "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;”

SUB-ASSERTION #1

MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN
RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH

Rom 5:6-10 “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died
for the ungodly. But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while
we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have
now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from
God's wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God
through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled,
will we be saved by his life?

Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:
While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died
for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God’s wrath,
and reconciled us to God through His death.

Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words
written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is
obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming
believers. Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous
occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.

At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the
enemies of Jesus, yet He said, “Father forgive them for they don’t know
what they are doing”. I believe the Father was in agreement with this
prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of
Jesus alone. Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day.
Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a
few verses later in Rom 5:18, “Consequently, just as one offense resulted
in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in
justification and life for everyone.”

SUB-ASSERTION #2

NO “PUNISHMENT”, “DESTRUCTION”, “PERISHING”, “LOSTNESS” IS ETERNAL; RATHER
GOD’S “PUNISHMENTS” OR “DESTRUCTION” ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE

Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This
discipline will not be “eternal”, but it will be “aeonian or eonian”, the
English equivalents of the Greek “aionios”. “Aeonian” punishment as
referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the
heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction
that God will administer to the unbeliever. The noun being modified by
aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek “kolasis” which has been
used in reference to “pruning” a plant for the purpose of better
production. “Kolasis” punishment is the corrective type, whereas, “timoria”
punishment is the retributive type. The “aeonian” life in Mt. 25:46 is the
life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief. This
is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with
this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and
therefore everlasting communion with our Father.

Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, “…who will be punished
with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,…”, is the kind of
destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His
purposes. Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is “from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power”. Jesus was
“destroyed” at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of
destruction or death, there is no sense of “eternal” associated with them
as Jesus rose to life and “the last enemy to be eliminated will be death”.

The “lost” sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did
not last forever. The word “lost” is the translation of the Greek
“apollumi”, from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish,
destroy, etc. As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only
“lost” until they were found. This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus
said He came to “seek and save the lost”.

Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for
becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the “lost”
unbelievers also. 1Tim 4:10 “For to this end we toil and strive, because
we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men,
especially of those who believe.” The Greek word that got translated
“especially” here is “malista”. Checking its usage in other verses makes
it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer
to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other
items mentioned in the context.

The Hebrew word “olam” has as its Greek equivalents “aion” and “aionios” in
the Septuagint. An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam
in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the
end in sight but not necessarily “eternal”, or “everlasting” or “forever”,
if it should ever be. Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah’s duration
in the fish, even though the “traditional” translation has been “forever”.
Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to
as “forever”, which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime.
Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam. Have
you noticed some versions use the phrase “forever and ever”. Have you ever
given thought to the absurdity of adding the words “and ever” after you
have already said forever? What’s more than forever? That’s like saying
something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity. The
absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those
translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal,
everlasting, forever, or the absurd “forever and ever” phrase.

An analysis of the word “hell” is quite revealing. Jesus used the word
“geena” or “hades” and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the
ignorant audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word “hell”, which means
“unseen” (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew “sheol” and attach to it a
meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment. Dr. Thomas
Thayer in his book “The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless
Punishment” traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with
the word hell to ancient Egypt. Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley
of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where
carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as
a future potential punishment with no sense of “eternal” punishment
inherent in its meaning. This refers to aeonian punishment which again is
God’s corrective punishment. Gehenna should have been left untranslated
because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus’ audience knew
exactly what he was referring to. Hades should have also been left
untranslated or translated as “unseen” or “the grave” as some versions do,
as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation. There are a
number of versions that don’t use the word “hell” even once, realizing the
bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation.

SUB-ASSERTION #3

ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR
LATER

The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God’s servants: DAVID,
ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN.

NOTE: Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to
belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we
have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will
only come to belief after their physical death. At this point some might
think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, Matt. 13:34. Parables must be discerned
spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional
stories to convey a spiritual message. Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and
Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be
disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles.

Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man’s. God
grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical
death. The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something
man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his
traditions, but God’s word does not speak of it.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;
and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Phi 1:29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you
should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,”

THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY
OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES.

“ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME.” --- GOD

Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him
be glory forever. Amen.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will
also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that
God may be all in all.

GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE

OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD

DAVID was inspired to write:

Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the
LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For
the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations

ISAIAH was inspired to write:

Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in
righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.'
Isa 45:24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and
strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against
him.

PAUL was inspired to write:

Phi 2:10-11 “…so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow
— in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”

Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee will
bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God."

JOHN was inspired to record:

Rev 5:13 “And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the
earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on
the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might
forever and ever!"

SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND
HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN
TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:

NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and
confessing as somehow “forced”, is born out of bias for eternal torment.
Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase “to the glory of God the
Father”. It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without
meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus
is Lord, that “…no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.”
(1 Cor. 12:3b)

EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD


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